kanotix.com

Anything goes - Linux period needs this type of Advertising
piper - 12.08.2006, 02:11 Uhr
Titel: Linux period needs this type of Advertising
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5363070237.html
Cuddles - 12.08.2006, 14:51 Uhr
Titel: RE: Linux period needs this type of Advertising
Piper,

Got to admit, its a catchy billboard... Not quite sure if its going to increase there marketshare, or, send people over in droves, but, it does get the "name" out in the public... Again, considering its location, the "commute" route between Palo Alto and San Francisco - along the 101 - most people are not really looking at billboards though ( did that, ran the 101 from Morgan Hill / Hollister to San Jose... never looked at billboards though, I was far more concerned with the horrendous traffic, and break-neck speeds ).

I think, as the story states, it may have been something for the LinuxWorld Conference... For me, I think Linux, and Kanotix, is doing a better job with there "current" marketing ploy - personal, one-on-one, and with "service" that rivals even Windows... Besides, not even Apple, and the big advertising they did during the "halftime" slot of the SuperBowl, did that much for them, it sure didnt stop people from buying into Windows, and that was a costly marketting plan.

Lets say, Kanotix, for example, bought in on a Super Bowl "half-time" TV slot? Do you "honestly" think, the mindless wonders, watching, would listen? Take action? Or, even switch? I dont think so, and it would be a rather "costly" thing to do. People are switching, as we talk, but, maybe, its not as fast as we like... Linux is not, imho, ever, going to be the "runaway" train wreck that Windows has become... ( and I think thats a GOOD thing )

Even if we use a simple marketting ploy, for our advertising, like showing a Windows Box with the "blue screen of death" along-side a Linux Box, running faster, better, and showing the security, stability, and user friendly interface of, lets say, KDE. Even if we show the "monetary" savings, I dont think the "mindless" Windows users out in the world, are going to even take notice. We are the "under-dog", we are the "guy" on the corner street, peddling our wares from under our cloak, we are the "subversives". I actually think its a good thing.

Linux has time... to ensure a product is "ready" for install, whereas, in the Windows World, they pipe the stuff out, whether or not. ( and people keep buying it, and then, dealing with it )

Well? Who wants to buy-in to a TV advertisement, media blitz? Or, a newspaper? Or radio? Right now, if we are lucky, we can get some allians to arrive, and, maybe, they will ask a computer person this time, and, that person will be running Windows ( considering the marketshare is around 90% plus ), "Take me to your LEADER!", and that, and many, would report that person is Gates - who knows, we might get lucky... and they take him away... possibly for painful, intrusive, and horrible, mind shattering, experiments - that would be a day... hee hee hee

Oh well, a lady can pray, or wish, or hope... haa haa haa
aking469 - 13.08.2006, 18:23 Uhr
Titel: Advertising
I agree with Cuddles. While it would be nice to see a mass migration to Linux.....I think the best way to make it comfortable for the migrators is one-to-one conversions. I took to linux after nearly two years of reading message boards and forums. I still wasn't completely ready for the learning curve I faced. While I really do enjoy the challenge and think that distros like Kanotix and Ubuntu are going a long way toward making Linux mainstream I don't think most people are ready to do what I have done to be "up and running". My daughter has used Windows, Linux, and now OSX. She is a 20yo college student who is very computer literate. She loves her new MacBookpro, has spent the better part of a week playing with the camera feature. Most people love eye-candy and don't want to know anything about the operating system. They don't care how or why it works, just that it does. And, for all of its current polish and usability, Linux isn't quite there yet, even Xandros or Linspire (read their message boards). I do like the fact that, as someone else stated in another thread, that "Kanotix is my reward for learning about operating systems" in general, and Linux specifically. Due to my new-found knowledge I have been able to help others with OSX, Windows, and Linux....I am becoming such a geek Lachen . But, that is the best way to grow a great user base, one-on-one, one-at-a-time, mentoring the newbies....of which I believe I am still one. Message boards like this are a godsend....too bad most aren't this good.
Richard - 13.08.2006, 19:09 Uhr
Titel: RE: Advertising
I think this marks the real beginning of commercial linux.

It is one of the major things missing from the promotion of Linux --mass advertising.
Not to win their hearts and minds, but to let them know that an alternative exists, and that people begin to remember the name. And to feel a bit more secure, if they happen to be buying something that says, "Ubuntu". Mass marketing takes mass cash. If you want to sell big you have to invest big. This is what it will take. Interesting that we haven't seen a Redhat, SuSE, or Mandriva billboard. At least no one has mentioned it. I imagine that we will soon see some and they will say that they were planning it since December, but Ubuntu just beat them to it. Smilie

For Linux to be used by the masses requires that there be a Linux for the masses.
Where the user is not able to do, "# aptitude dist-upgrade" and break their system. Just doesn't work in that environment. That must be the reason Microsoft only tries to do security updates; even though they break things from time to time.
Mass users will just run the OS and get their enjoyment from the use of the apps and not from fiddling with the environment. They only complain if they can't do something that Humphrey at the office can do.

I'm happy to see a mass market Linux and happy that is based on Debian, after a fashion. It may not be pure but it is closer than Windows stuff and with a much more palatable license. And I know there is someone working now on a hack to automate the conversion of Ubuntu back to Debian.

Just my $0.02, for nothing.

I imagine that the majority of you reading this would only change to another Linux for geeks, and probably not to Ubuntu. We wouldn't be here if we didn't love/hate fiddling with the darn things. It is sad to admit, but I was sort of unhappy when I realized that my installation is working just fine and really doesn't need anything. So I started looking for new apps and other new ways to break something.

But the majority are not like that. They would run Debian Stable if it were preinstalled and pre-configured and did the things they expected from an OS.

regards,
Richard.
h2 - 13.08.2006, 19:35 Uhr
Titel: RE: Advertising
it's important to distinguish between commercial, or commercially backed, and non-commercial linux. Kanotix gains nothing from having to start supporting a bunch of windows users who want to try replicating their windows experience on linux. In other words, ubuntu users, etc.

The reason these forums are good is because kanotix attracts good users, generally with unusually good computer skills. Same for irc. But also users who maybe don't want to go as far as gentoo, debian sid, or slackware.

Linux per se shouldn't 'do' anything, since there is no such thing as linux per se, especially on the desktop. I've read the ubuntu forums many times, and sometimes found solutions on them, but if these forums started taking on the tone and technical skill level of the ubuntu forums I'd move over to debian even though it is more of a pain in some areas.

I believe it's a fairly significant error to speak of 'linux' as if it's one thing, like osx or windows, then to say that non-existent one thing should do x or y to achieve some goal or other. To me there's a massive gap between all the commercial type distros and the non commercial ones, personally I have zero interest in any commercial, or potentially commercial distro, though I wish them luck in their endevors. That's ubuntu, suse/opensuse, redhat/fedora, linspire, mandriva, and so on.

The non commercial distros should just keep doing what they are doing, it's already very impressive. Users who want to use these free type distros should adjust to the distro that works best for them. If you want a system that is both free as in beer and free as in freedom to the greatest extent practically possible, then you should expect to pay a price for that freedom at some point, and that price is a steeper learning curve.

Obviously windows users who want a windows type experience should probably go for the protected type systems, like osx, or the commercial distros. Since non-commercial distros have to spend money at some point to support more users, it's hard to see what they have to gain by trying to grab users who probably will not end up contributing anything positive. Or such users should just stick with windows, since that's what they actually want anyway, so why bother changing?

The other extremely interesting variant of distros is in the new Spanish Extremadura government funded debian based distro, gnuLinEx, which is filling a relatively new niche between totally free, non-commercial, and commercial or pseudo commercial, that's a state/organization actually taking care of its own needs in house on a very large scale, in this case I believe it will end up being over 100k installs just on the goverment level, plus however many the population at large decides it wants. And from my first look at that distro, that's going to be pretty damned successful in its niche.

People who like windows, who like how it works, who like the way you can plug in your gadgets and play with them to your heart's content, should stick with windows. I don't see why any non-commercial distro, or even why most commercial distros, would try to support this type of user, it's just not worth it from what I can see. People who are tired of the windows way of doing things, but still want a fully commercial and supported environment, but expensive, have os x to use. And people who want to use free software have that to use. Each of these choices has pluses and minuses. Asking Linux desktops to be as user friendly as Windows is not unlike asking Windows to be as stable and secure as Linux desktops tend to be. It's the 'user friendliness' that to a great degree makes Windows unstable and insecure.

There's a reason I think, and it's not just inertia, that many corporations are really hesitating to move to desktop linux. And there's a reason many state governments are moving to free standards/software. I wouldn't want to support an average user who wants to add stuff to his / her system constantly on linux to be honest, to me a good linux desktop is a power user platform, and I'd love to see desktop linux start filling that niche of powerusers, and leave windows and os x to their own respective niches. Powerusers in this case might include network admins who run networks of linux desktop machines.

And of course, oddly enough, desktop linux is also a great choice for your total non skilled computer user who will just email, do some word processing, and web surfing, no viruses to clean up, no spyware to remove, and no blue screens.

But for that huge group in the middle of these two poles, I don't know... especially in the US market.
aking469 - 13.08.2006, 21:01 Uhr
Titel: Commercial Linux
I do appreciate the fact that a number of enterprises are attempting to create a commercial Linux distro....but, it will be difficult, unless they target those who do not attempt to add to their systems too much. I have played with Ubuntu, but too proprietary for me. Can't change the things I want to. I have learned a great deal over the past 2 years, and have come to the conclusion that H2 is probably spot on, most of the reason for the Kanotix (an others) success is because of the willingness of its users to attempt things and learn how to do them. We are willing to dig around and learn the CLI, at least to a point, create work arounds, etc. Most people are not. Yes, it is nice that they become aware of an alternative. Yes, we will all benefit, even to a small degree from their efforts. But, I doubt we will ever be very mainstream...kinda covert Cool people we are. If many of you are like me, I broke my Windows install over and over trying to get it to be "my way", most people just don't understand that at all. I just can't help myself Traurig .
wh7qq - 13.08.2006, 21:03 Uhr
Titel: RE: Advertising
Interesting philosophical thread.

The fact is that Microsoft has driven a defective product line to major success on the back of an amazingly effective marketing campaign and the open architecture of the x86PC. The marketing department has also driven inclusion of all the bells and whistles that the masses love, and the alledged "ease of use" (although I've torn out enough of my scant remaining hair over XP to know what a crock that is).

Marketing is a two edged sword. It gets the sales and the money for high salaries and expansion but it tends to enslave and dominate the engineering side and eventually gets the whole organization believing its own BS. Linux is still pretty honest because the marketing efforts are fragmented over the commercial distros who are really selling support services and a little bit of polishing.

Kanotix beats the others cold because it has a core of dedicated super heros who love what they do and do what they love. No need for marketing hype here: it is excellence for its own sake. For my money, Kanotix installs and maintains easier than any other distro, ubuntu/linspire not withstanding. Still, its hard to see the others at the top of the numbers heap when the only thing they do better than Kanotix is market themselves. The way of the world.
drb - 13.08.2006, 22:49 Uhr
Titel:
I fixed someones XP box today. I presumed that the repair option on the XP disk might repair something - it didn't; it just took me to a "dos prompt". A simple chkdsk fixed the booting loop error. The problem was caused by a hard shutdown because someone was in a hurry. How many people call out a PC engineer to fix a simple problem with XP? Is Linux really behind XP in this respect? I don't think so. Perhaps I've been fortunate but my 2005-04-RC17 has upgraded daily without any real problems except for the xorg changes which took a few hours for the helpful Kanotix developers to sort out.

drb
Cuddles - 13.08.2006, 23:04 Uhr
Titel: RE: Advertising
h2,

I see where you are coming from, I, in no way, was suggesting we "take on" all the Windows users in an all-out conversion of them over to us... I was more in-line with the idea, that, in my case, I wanted to get away from Windows. I hated it, it didnt work, and, most of my time was spent in; fixing it, keeping it fixed, or, looking for ways that I dont have to fix it... pre and post usage... It never happened. I find, that, when I found Knoppix / Kanotix, that, I didnt really have to deal with all of that, and was left to doing what I wanted to do, more. My mind-set was on alternate OS's of Windows, and I was willing to learn, test, try, and even break, my system in fonding one.

I dont think that many "main-stream" users are in this "mind-set". But, as time has passed since I started, Linux has become more and more "familiar" to the public... Instead of getting responses like: "Linux? Whats that?" - I get more of them like this: "Linux? Isnt that the thing with the 'penguin'?" -=- Linux IS getting noticed, and, yes, that is a generalized grouping of all the Distros. If we were going to compare Windows to Linux, it would have to be something like an Apple to a "basket" of Oranges, each orange being slightly different from another; sweet, a few sour, some bright orange, a few duller, some bland, and others, superb in flavor. But, as I have said before, when it comes to Windows, we know who the "leader" is. In Linux, an allien would have a tough time finding just ONE Smilie

BYW, h2, excellent work with that script, it runs wonderfully, just had to add that Sehr glücklich
h2 - 13.08.2006, 23:25 Uhr
Titel: RE: Advertising
By the way, if any of you have missed it, the current FUD campaign of big commercial software companies seems to be moving towards: linux desktop/ open source applications is too hard, from TCO, which in turn replaced 'open source software is a cancer', which just didn't go over well with companies with large linux server installs, lol. There's a sub topic in this, that linux support is lacking, rtfm etc.. which is truly surreal, since MS has no support channels at all that are free.... but facts generally have nothing to do with FUD campaigns, the important thing is to create an idea in the average user's mind before a competing idea gets in there on its own.

One identifying feature of these types of postings is that they ALWAYS talk about linux as one thing, they talk about linux software as being one thing, with special focus on the gimp not being feature identical to photoshop, because OOo is simply too good to draw attention to any more, like firefox, apache, konqueror, etc. Also mention of being annoyed at being asked to fix problems with open source projects, as if the user had some intrinsic right to have a perfect clone of free as in beer OS or image manipulation programs that cost about $200 and $600 each respectively retail. Like spoiled children.

This switch suggests to me that linux desktop useability, across the range of oranges in that basket, is in fact getting very close to good enough for an ever increasing percentage of average users, at least in the eyes of big software houses like adobe or microsoft who are I assume paying for this campaign just like they've paid for the last ones.

This PR approach will work really well in countries like the United States, where you can actually cause fear by suggesting, or hinting, that you might be inconvienced by something, or one of your whims might not be instantly satisified, or some manufactured desire can't be met, but isn't working at all in other places with less invested in maintaining the windows based computing lifestyle, like china, spain, south america, and so on.

However, next time I read someone say: linux is hard to install, I'm going to lose it, since it takes 20 minutes to install kanotix, total. Minimum base install for windows, 3-4 hours. With at least 20 reboots in the process.

Another thing I've been seeing more and more is little websites appearing, that get links in digg, etc, with stories like: linux sucks, but last time I tried it was 5 years ago, but let me tell you why it sucks. Literally. These sites are almost all pr created constructions I believe, I've seen more and more of these over the last year. My favorite was the supposed MS guy who liked open source, but then just happened to write a blog posting pointing out the weaknesses of ubuntu... the last posting in that blog had been several months before....

glad you like the script cuddles
Cathbard - 14.08.2006, 10:51 Uhr
Titel:
One of the most impressive things about Linux/GNU is how it can sit so far outside of the capitalist model but still continue to grow and grow. Practically no advertisements, just word of mouth but still onwards and upwards it goes. The corporate software houses have no idea how to tackle it and the harder they fight the faster it grows.
Linux/GNU doesn't need to adopt the fascist corporate approach; the fact that it doesn't just makes it more appealing. I don't think the current approach needs to change at all, it is working marvelously.
Cuddles - 14.08.2006, 12:54 Uhr
Titel:
h2,

Is it me, or cant people see through the FUD? Everytime they come up with something, it just sounds like two politicians throwing MUD at each other... Seeing who can get the best dirt on the other? Its very childish... I think Linux is wise, or, wiser, not to play the game, not justify, or dignify, the claims. I sure hope it can be seen for what it really is...

cathbard,

Here here! I think we are doing the best with the money we have, or get. Let the big companies spend there fortunes on advertising, or FUD campaigns - see where it is getting them? You might as well toss the money down the toilet. I cant fathom how much money, at least Kanotix, is getting in donations, but, if it is "anything" it is best spent to "further" Kanotix, or Kano, or the "development" team, or, whatever. The "word-of-mouth" ad campaigns are great, when you have a great product, but, it has a dual-edge, if the product sucks, then this same "positive" campaign, can also work against you. I think this is why, Windows, for example, cant rely on it, and has relied on the mass-market, media campaign, for its advertising. Word-of-mouth is cheap, but, not reliable if your product isnt either, whereas, media campaigns, are more reliable when you have, lets say, a less than perfect, product...

Oh well, off to work... Someone has to make those "ER" kits for them to use... ( I seriously HATE needles! )
piper - 14.08.2006, 19:44 Uhr
Titel:
Great thread !

I too don't want mass droves (overnight), (damn, the forums (all linux) would be a mess Smilie)

Many people do not know the power of a "super bowl" commercial and the effects of it. Most of the commercials have a very good sense of humour to them and I have the last 8 super bowl commercials taped. I personally don't think it will make people switch to linux in droves, but get the word out, that there is a alternative to Microsoft & Apple. Almost every single linux site (lxer, etc...) has microsoft advertisments (hehe sponser ?) on their pages and I have not really seen nothing from linux. Linux does great by word of mouth and has since it was available to the public. I too don't like the commercial distro's, but for some people (and business) they need/want it. Now, I, could be wrong here, but, sooner or later linux is going to need advertisments to play in the league (if it wants to be takin serious and not just a geeks hobby).

Great opinions here from everyone
aking469 - 14.08.2006, 22:14 Uhr
Titel: Linux Droves
I doubt people will come in droves regardless of what Ubuntu may or may not do. Even with advertising Linux will find itself swimming upstream for a very long time. Example: Apple. Better product (on the whole), better support, better understanding of the need....but, sorely lacking in shelf space, price break, and familiarity. People complain mightily about MS, but when faced with a sensible, albeit more expensive, alternative choose to stay where they are. Unless MS creates a free Windows version, as long as the big box stores get the huge price breaks from Redmond, and as long as the product isn't completely defective, the people won't move hardly at all. Apple has gained marketshare in the past couple of years, but nothing like the fanboys predicted. And, they aren't going to.

The real question is who will move. The more adventurous computer user, the geek, and the hobbyist will move first. Those who simply want a more secure system, and are willing to work to make it happen will move next. Those who love tinkering with stuff have always been the early adoptors. I just don't see many doing this, when I see people like a math teacher I work with, who is a computer genius, complaining bitterly about MS, but won't even try Linux. If someone with his knowledge won't....FUD being what it is....how might we find others save via word-of-mouth.

People are funny too. I couldn't give away a pet rabbit years ago. But, as soon as I advertised it for sale....it was purchased immediately. Weird. Don't know the lesson there. But, I do know that their inertia is our gain. We have a community online of people who care about the OS, willing to work with it, contribute to it, and not simply complain over and over. I get enough complaints at work...I am a teacher after all Lachen
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