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Titel: Realtime kernel
 Verfasst am: 27.09.2006, 17:58 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 15. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 107
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Hi...
..is there a reason why Kanotix does not ship with the RT kernel?
This is always nice to use in other distros - all the multimedia LiveCD's have RT as standard - makes their distros very snappy and slick to use.
Why not Kanotix?? What is the downside?
brodders |
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Titel: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 27.09.2006, 18:03 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 16. Aug 2004
Beiträge: 1905
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What do YOU expect from a realtime kernel?
--
(hint, realtime degrades performance significantly) |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 28.09.2006, 17:52 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 15. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 107
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Hi,
my understanding the RT kernel is to minimise delays - typically for audio / multimedia apps, which need (?why - what's wrong with buffering?) instant responses. The patches tweek the schedular and insert more I/O event task checking in blocks of code which would otherwise hog time (so delaying response).
Why do I like RT distros? Well, using say dyna:bolic it is very clear that the RT mods make the system extremely smooth in use.
That's it. I like the responsive feel of <it's done> over <..it's done> !
No functional benefit - except the feel of using the distro. It's better.
So I wonder - why not ship as standard like this - what is the downside?
brodders |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 28.09.2006, 18:21 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 17. Dez 2003
Beiträge: 1109
Wohnort: Ganymede
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| The rt patches don't cause any noticible speed improvement here but I do use an rt kernel for my audio applications e.g. Ardour, XMMS, etc. It's quite simple to build your own rt kernel and there is even a Howto for your reading enjoyment. In case you did not notice Kanotix is not billed as a multimedia distro. |
_________________
Ubuntu - An ancient African word for "Can't install Debian"
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 29.09.2006, 09:39 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 15. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 107
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Hi mzilikazi,
 I am aware of these things...
but my Q still stands, let me rephrase it:
Given various advantages, why does Kanotix not ship with the RT kernel as standard?
I suppse that there is a downside which militates against this.
..but what?
brodders |
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Titel: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 01:44 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 732
Wohnort: Texas
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brodders hat folgendes geschrieben::
I suppse that there is a downside which militates against this.
..but what?
brodders
slh hat folgendes geschrieben::
(hint, realtime degrades performance significantly)
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Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more.
Mark Twain
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 03:50 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 03. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 1544
Wohnort: out there somewhere
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 04:20 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 732
Wohnort: Texas
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Makes it easy when we can just quote (from the same 1 page thread) - right piper  |
_________________
Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more.
Mark Twain
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 13:02 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 16. Aug 2004
Beiträge: 1905
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Another question for you, what improvements would an -rt kernel do for the general user, defined by:
- browsing the web
- reading emails
- listening to mp3/ ogg vorbis via amaroK
- using kaffeine/ vdr/ kdetv to watch/ record TV/ videos
- using webcams and VoIP services
- burning CDs/ DVDs with k3b/ wodim
- doing office related tasks with koffice, OOo2, abiword, gnumeric
- using wlan
- playing ego shooter games
- doing graphics design with gimp
- being a C/ C++, perl, python, sh, ruby, scheme, cobol, algol, ... developer and doing heavy compiling
- doing web design with quanta+
- hosting several servers like apache, *SQL, postfix/ exim/ sendmail, dhcpd, bind9, rsync, samba, nfsd
- designing in inkscape
- 3d modelling with blender
- cutting/ transcoding videos
- [ . . . ]
- or something really strange, like using the live CD or using notebooks on batteries
?
--
I'm honestly interested in your answer or different definitions for the majority of kanotix users. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 14:14 Uhr
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Artist
Anmeldung: 11. Aug 2005
Beiträge: 451
Wohnort: Australia
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I use a RT kernel because I use Ardour, Muse etc so I just compile it myself. What would be nice however is an option to patch the kernel with RT in H2's script. Hint hint
Recording apps in linux are brilliant but patching the kernel for RT often scares people away which is a shame. A script would be nice. |
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Cathbard.com
The real pirates by Courtney Love
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Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 15:38 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 03. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 1544
Wohnort: out there somewhere
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jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
Makes it easy when we can just quote (from the same 1 page thread) - right piper
hehe
Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::
Hint hint
lol, alot of work, I presume |
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h2's d-u script
h2's rdiff-backup script
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 19:37 Uhr
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Developer
Anmeldung: 01. Okt 2004
Beiträge: 245
Wohnort: Australia
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Why would we blindly introduce an intricate, invasive patch that significant modifies core behaviours of the kernel just so a smal subset of the population may feel as if they now have an advantage when using their audio apps?
Best wait until the guru's (linux kernel maintainers) integrate this functionality in the future.
Kel. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 19:38 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 08. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 300
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 01.10.2006, 18:10 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 15. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 107
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Aha! ..it must be all that then
brodders
+ smily icon for "squints and resolves to get better glasses..." |
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Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Realtime kernel
Verfasst am: 02.10.2006, 00:40 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 17. Dez 2003
Beiträge: 1109
Wohnort: Ganymede
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kelmo hat folgendes geschrieben::
blah blah blah the population may feel as if they now have an advantage when using their audio apps?
It's not a feeling kelmo - there is a genuine difference. You should try it next time you want to record your didgeridoo.  |
_________________
Ubuntu - An ancient African word for "Can't install Debian"
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 02.10.2006, 00:46 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 17. Dez 2003
Beiträge: 1109
Wohnort: Ganymede
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Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::
What would be nice however is an option to patch the kernel with RT in H2's script.
Better yet would be an rt kernel ready to download & install. I *may* put an effort to that end in the near future. 2.6.18-rt3 honestly did not work so well and I dropped back to 2.6.17-rt Now that patch-2.6.18-rt5 is out I need to recompile and test for a while. |
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Ubuntu - An ancient African word for "Can't install Debian"
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 02.10.2006, 15:21 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 02. Nov 2005
Beiträge: 127
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| If it wasnt absoultely necessary to patch the kernel to acheive decent audio latencies then we surely wouldnt all bother? And those of us who use serious auidio apps thank mzilikazi for his excellent how to- which recieves decent interest to this date- and acheives RT kernel within less than 10 mins. Of course Kano is no musician (to my knowledge anyway lol) and this is HIS distro, so we wont be seeing an RT kernel ship with kanotix- it would be a waste of (valuable) disk space. |
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Linux user 403389 and Herbaholic Trichopath
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.10.2006, 22:21 Uhr
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Artist
Anmeldung: 11. Aug 2005
Beiträge: 451
Wohnort: Australia
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| An RT kernel shipped in the iso wouldn't even be on the wish list. That would have to be a private DAW project of some sort. However, looking forward to MZ's kernel packages, thats the way to do it. Nice one. |
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Cathbard.com
The real pirates by Courtney Love
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 05.10.2006, 05:12 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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| If someone creates a rt kernel that is fully compatible with the install directions for kanotix standard kernels it's no problem to add that option to du-fixes, but only if the kernel package is 100% compatible with the standard kanotix formats. |
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Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 06.10.2006, 06:10 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 17. Dez 2003
Beiträge: 1109
Wohnort: Ganymede
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Edit This kernel is still available BUT you can also download a newer version from an actual (unofficial) Debian repo.
Kernel 2.6.18-mz-rt5 can be downloaded from here.
This is packaged just like the Kanotix kernels. It is patched with the same patchset used on 2.6.18-slh-up-2.
All modules plus kernel image, headers and doc are in a zip file.
Download the .zip archive, unpack and run the install-realtime-kernel.sh.
Only problem so far is that lirc modules failed to build for me. No chance to figure out why just yet so if you really need lirc you would need to build that module yourself until I get it fixed.
Please test the mz-source.sh script as well.
You'll also need this PAM module or realtime WILL NOT work.
I'll add the PAM module to the next kernel.zip
Please test and report back. Enjoy!  |
_________________
Ubuntu - An ancient African word for "Can't install Debian"
Zuletzt bearbeitet von mzilikazi am 22.11.2006, 01:04 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 06.10.2006, 13:23 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 11. Jul 2006
Beiträge: 117
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thanks a lot for this, so many musician can see the real performens from jackd ardur rosegarden ..... without compile a one kernel
i put a link in german forum for that
i enjoy it  |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 09.10.2006, 21:32 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 17. Dez 2003
Beiträge: 1109
Wohnort: Ganymede
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OK made a few changes:
Added PAM module to zip archive.
The install-realtime-kernel.sh will install the PAM module for you.
Small fix for stupid error in mz-source.sh
Moved rt5 patch to a different mirror. When ingo uploads a new patch the old one is removed!
This would not work too well for building a realtime patched kernl source.
Just tested the install-realtime-kernel.sh, mz-source.sh on a fresh RC4 installation. It works fabulously.
Code:
~$ infobash -v2
Host/Kernel/OS "tuxmeister" running Linux 2.6.18-mz-rt5 i686 [ KANOTIX 2006-01 ]
CPU Info Pentium III (Coppermine) clocked at [ 863.812 MHz ]
Videocard nVidia NV11DDR [GeForce2 MX 100 DDR/200 DDR] X.Org 7.1.1 [ 1280x1024 @85hz ]
Network cards Intel 82801BA/BAM/CA/CAM Ethernet Controller, at port: 1000
Processes 109 | Uptime 4:36 | Memory 364.91/375.812MB | HDD ST320414A,SanDisk Cruzer Mini Size 20GB (28%used) | GLX Renderer GeForce2 MX/AGP/SSE | GLX Version 1.5.6 NVIDIA 87.74 | Client Shell | Infobash v2.50rc21
So..........You no longer need to download the PAM module. Get the zip archive, unpack it and run the installation script:
Code:
mkdir kernel
cd kernel
wget http://www.gefechtsdienst.de/uman/files/glenn/files/kernel-2.6.18-mz-rt5.zip
unp kernel-2.6.18-mz-rt5.zip
./install-realtime-kernel.sh
Be sure to post any problems you might have. |
_________________
Ubuntu - An ancient African word for "Can't install Debian"
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 09.10.2006, 21:53 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 16. Aug 2004
Beiträge: 1905
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| mzilikazi, you might want to disable wlan and ISDN driver (and some others on a case by case basis) completely because both introduce long non interruptable latencies - one of the reasons why -rt kernels (besides their own problems) aren't usable for general purpose systems, just like -rt patched kernels with a generic configuration aren't useful for serious realtime tasks... |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.10.2006, 20:56 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 03. Okt 2006
Beiträge: 6
Wohnort: Washington State, USA
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Anyone tried the 2.6.18-1-486 kernel from the Debian unstable repositories? I've got it running on my RC3 install right now and hitting 5.8msec latency with an onboard nForce4 sound chip and the only xruns I'm getting is when I open a new window (like Firefox to post this)!
Very nice, no hacked pam modules or anything. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.10.2006, 23:32 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 17. Dez 2003
Beiträge: 1109
Wohnort: Ganymede
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Oktyabr hat folgendes geschrieben::
the only xruns I'm getting is when I open a new window (like Firefox to post this)!
Very nice, no hacked pam modules or anything.
That is completely unacceptable for music production and the PAM module is not 'hacked'.
Edit
libpam-modules-0.79-4 in Debian testing/sid is perfectly fine for realtime BUT
you must edit /etc/security/limits.conf.
Append the following to the end:
@audio - rtprio 99
@audio - nice -10
@audio - memlock 250000 |
_________________
Ubuntu - An ancient African word for "Can't install Debian"
Zuletzt bearbeitet von mzilikazi am 22.11.2006, 01:07 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
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